R. Student & commenters miss the obvious
In the process of writing my recent "Challenge" post, I noticed Rabbi Gil Student's June 23, 2010 "Praying on the Subway." (You can also read it on his new blog here, but the original comes complete with the name of the author [Gil Student] and the correct comment count [71]).
“I often see women praying from a siddur on the subway, during the commute to work in the morning. There are many reasons why I think this is a bad practice but we also have to keep in mind that some women are juggling so many responsibilities that this is the only opportunity they have to pray. Let's just address one halakhic aspect of this issue.
The Torah says "ולא יראה בך ערות דבר - He may see no naked thing among you" (Deut. 23:15). The Gemara (Shabbos 150a) learns from the word davar that no dibur (word) of holiness can be recited in front of nakedness. That means no prayer, Shema or words of Torah can be recited in front of someone improperly dressed.
This should effectively prohibit praying on the NYC subway during the summer, when the trains are full of immodestly dressed women. . . .
There is, however, room for leniency. The Rema (Orach Chaim 75:1) follows the Rosh, who holds that this rule applies to women in front of immodestly dressed women just like it applies to men in front of women. The Rashba, though, is lenient and only prohibits women from praying in front of uncovered genitalia. Many later authorities rule according to the Rashba (e.g. Mishnah Berurah 75:8; Kitzur Shulchan Arukh 5:16).”
Seventy-one comments follow concerning the permissibility of women praying in the present of immodestly-dressed women and the question of whether reading prayers and/or Torah silently are the halachic equivalents of praying and/or studying aloud.
And not one commenter thinks to suggest that the real problem with women davvening/praying on the subway might be that women might be distracted from their prayers by men!
Let me get this straight: A (straight) woman would be distracted by another woman's exposed cleavage, but would not notice the guy in skin-tight jeans, or the guy sitting directly across the aisle with his knees spread wide open?!
The rabbis quoted by Rabbi Student were all men. They thought like men, they wrote like men, and many of their rulings regard issues that are only of relevance to men. To them (judging by what they wrote), men were quivering bundles of desire with low resistance thresholds, whereas, apparently, women were made of stone. Did they, and do these modern writers and commenters, truly think that the only thing radical enough to distract a woman is naked genitalia?!
News flash: A hat with a brim is very handy for davvening and/or studying on public transit, whether you're male or female--just pull the brim down far enough that you can't see anything worth looking at.
16 Comments:
hee hee hee! Excellent point. They cannot imagine the male body as enticing at all. Sexists.
Well Tzipporah, considering the average O rabbinic body, I can kind of see their point ....
"They cannot imagine the male body as enticing at all."
Yep. We women are the only sex objects (quoth she sarcastically).
I don't get it. Do these men truly not realize that they're insulting themselves? Or do they truly think that being considered sexy is insulting?
"Well Tzipporah, considering the average O rabbinic body, I can kind of see their point ...."
:)
Rabbi Gil Student's e-mailed response to this post: "I'm not interested in rewriting Judaism. I believe in following the sacred texts and traditions."
My e-mailed reply: "Then find a sacred text on the same subject that's really about women, not about men."
Here's another message to Rabbi Student that I e-mailed this morning, after calming down enough to be more civil:
"In all seriousness, you're a rabbi and a publisher, with excellent connections in the Modern/Centrist Orthodox community. (You work for the Orthodox Union, if I remember correctly.) Surely you know a few female Torah scholars. I'd be very interested in reading something on this subject based on divrei kodesh and the mesorah, but written from a woman's point of view."
Shira, I've been reading your blog, and commenting now and then, for a long time. And I share your struggle with the nature of conservative judaism today.
But I just don't understand why you are so angry with the Orthodox, particularly those of R' Student's ilk and those to the right. No one is forcing you to be O. You're affiliated with the conservative movement, and within that movement you have a spectrum of observance broad enough to accommodate you completely. Why not focus your energy and your considerable talent with the written word on those issues. Inevitably, when you veer off on a challenge to some aspect of Orthodoxy, usually of a feminist nature, your arguments are generally ineffective. You, and they, are speaking completely different languages. What you want, and how soon you want it, are simply unavailable from the O perspective. There will be change. It will be painfully slow and evolutionary. But this is the nature of established religion, which is inherently conservative (small "c" conservative). None of the arguments you make will change that, and, frequently, show you arguing from a secular, rather than religious perspective.
If they don't have enough women religious leaders in their shuls, don't go to their shuls. But I don't think its intellectually honest to keep raising this cudgel.
I plead guilty to "arguing from a secular, rather than religious perspective." In my defense, I don't consider myself learned enough to argue any other way--I can't quote Gemara, since I've never studied it. This may very well be why my arguments are "generally ineffective." I am, indeed, not speaking the same language as many members of the Orthodox community.
That said, I wouldn't consider myself intellectually dishonest, just stubborn. :)
There's also a "chinuch" (education) aspect to many of my posts. As I commented to this post, " . . .
It's been my experience that folks raised Orthodox can sometimes be ignorant in ways totally different from those raised non-Orthodox, in that some of them seem to think that *everyone* Jewish practices (or should practice) Judaism in the exact same way that they do. You may remember my post about a situation in which I recently found myself, in the course of which I got an earful from someone who had never heard any individual give the name of both parents of the deceased when asking for a prayer for the deceased. She acted as if I'd just committed a major sin. It's that kind of "I never heard of such a thing" attitude--some, but by no means all, FFBs (Frum/Orthodox from Birth) might also add "and I think that's awful"--that I was trying to combat when I guest-posted on Heshy's blog.” I do the same thing on my own blog--I try to introduce different perspectives to those who may never have been exposed to them.
>>some of them seem to think that *everyone* Jewish practices (or should practice) Judaism in the exact same way that they do.<<
That's not a particularly Jewish phenomenon; it's called "narrowmindedness". It is not a reflection of a lack of jewish education, but rather a lack of general education. While there are certainly exceptions, those who grow up in small worlds often have small minds.
For example, on several occasions non-jewish people I worked with, who knew I was Jewish, were astounded to learn that I did not celebrate Xmas. And these were people who had spent their lives in the greater New York metropolitan area, and I was not the first yid they had met.
no, they're NOT insulting themselves, they're incapable of seeing themselves as objects, only as subjects.
And therefore don't empathize with what it feels like to be treated as an object.
I completely agree with Tzipporah. I cannot daven in the nearest orthodox shul near my home because many men daven upwards towards the women's section (specific to meat market shuls near where I live). Or go to the door that opens into the women's section and stare at them, causing the sole single woman in the women's section to disappear into the book stacks because she was so uncomfortable.
(on retrospect I should have slammed the door in his face)
If the men want to complain and criticize, let them take on some of the women's responsibilities and leave the women to daven at home (or god forbid, in the closet that passes for the women's section at shul).
"That's not a particularly Jewish phenomenon; it's called "narrowmindedness". It is not a reflection of a lack of jewish education, but rather a lack of general education."
That may be so, Steve, but some in the Orthodox Jewish world lack a "general education" of sorts, in that they've been sheltered from the broader Jewish community, which makes them narrowminded.
"no, they're NOT insulting themselves, they're incapable of seeing themselves as objects, only as subjects.
And therefore don't empathize with what it feels like to be treated as an object."
Tzipporah, I think your interpretation is closer to the truth than mine.
"I cannot daven in the nearest orthodox shul near my home because many men daven upwards towards the women's section (specific to meat market shuls near where I live). Or go to the door that opens into the women's section and stare at them, "
That must be pretty upsetting, RivkaYael. Of what use are Gemara studies if a person hasn't mastered such basic middot (character traits) as derech eretz (common courtesy) and kavod ha-briyut (respect for HaShem's creations)? :(
Make that "kavod ha-briyot." Sigh. Real life--two major projects at the office--can be a real distraction from blogging. :)
I agree with some of your sentiments Shira. I don't think that people who are Orthodox should judge those who are non-orthodox as being "less Jewish" than them because they don't practice Judaism in the "real way". Just because I or someone else converted with a non-orthodox movement doesn't make us goyim. I agree to disagree with orthodox perspectives. If they choose to daven a certain way or to disregard women it's their choice as long as they don't insult non-orthodox women as well as men for having women rabbis, women torah scholars, and doing things in a way that is non-orthodox, etc.
Colleen, conversion is a bit of a hot topic, but mutual respect would certainly be preferable. According to some commenters to some more recent posts of mine, I need some work in that area, myself.
"And not one commenter thinks to suggest that the real problem with women davvening/praying on the subway might be that women might be distracted from their prayers by men!Let me get this straight: A (straight) woman would be distracted by another woman's exposed cleavage, but would not notice the guy in skin-tight jeans, or the guy sitting directly across the aisle with his knees spread wide open?!The rabbis quoted by Rabbi Student were all men."
But the post assumes that a man may pray in front of any woman, attractive or not, so long as she is dressed in a way that covers the parts halacha requires be covered. Thats the objective rule. if he finds a woman dressed this way subjectively attractive and therefore distracting, then this is a personal, subjective issue to take into account, but not a cut and dried rule. it therefore makes perfect sense not to discuss men dressed according to sociatal norms and covered according to halachic norms who are in "skin tight jeans" and it certainly makes sense not to discuss men with "knees spread wide." i'm a woman and have to say the latter does not sound particularly alluring and the former mostly not either. subjectivity is in the eye of the beholder for men and women so why would he discuss it in the post?
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